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but then that crossover from 2D to 3D, I just never seemed to be able to make it work. I played with SketchUp and struggle. I played with Revit and struggle. So, yeah, that might be one of my Achilles heels as well as 3D Cat. Well, a good place to start. I need to go look out and see if it will work for you because it's fairly simple. You don't have to install anything. You just go out to the website Pinkercad. It's a site owned by people who make AutoCad, so I get auto-dissed. Anyway, it's a pretty good, easy to use software. It's not super sophisticated, but it can do most things fairly well. After watching Carla do a lot of things really well if you know what you're doing. The name sounds like a little bit of a kindergarten or something, but yeah, I just pulled.