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and the incoming one specifically, I'm still trying to understand when is the appropriate time for a newcomer to start their first balance with an incoming bureau when they don't even know if the bureau has going to have anything or not and sort of what appropriate starting balance is making. That will be all, VA-4 and HA. Okay well, of course if you're beginning or if you haven't done too many QSOs there, it might not worth to invest already in sending envelope and funds to get your cards. It will come after you have a certain amount of QSO done and not all the stations reply to QSO card demands right after your QSO. Just like I said at the very beginning of the net, I'm still receiving QSO card through the bureau for QSO that are 10 years old. QSO were made 10 years ago. So believe it or not, but sometimes it takes a lot of time to people.